VIC 32 | Drug Addiction

Join us for an emotionally charged episode that dives deep into the raw realities of love and crisis.

KL Wells’ world shattered as her beloved son, Sam, fell into the grip of drug psychosis, and was taken to jail right before her eyes. But within the shadows of despair emerged an unexpected glimmer of hope in the form of Grace Burkhart. 

Grace is our very first guest that works in the criminal justice system and tells of her own battle with her second husband’s addiction. She is a powerful resource to those trying to figure out how to navigate the system.

Step into the lives of these two extraordinary women as they share a journey through unimaginable trials, each fueled by personal turmoil and resilience. Grace’s kindness becomes KL’s guiding light amid the darkness.

If you’ve experienced the heartache of a loved one’s arrest, this episode is your beacon of hope!

Watch the episode here

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Grace Burkhart – From Crisis To Connection: When Someone I Love Has Been Arrested

I am super excited to have the person that I have with me. She’s the first person that we’ve had that is very familiar with the broad spectrum of public policy, the criminal justice system, social work, and so on and so forth. To give you a little bit of context, a few years ago when my son was arrested, he was in drug psychosis and went to jail. I was a deer caught in the headlights because I didn’t have any experience in this arena whatsoever. My son was out of his mind in so many ways. I got on the bat phone and called one of my dearest friends and said, “Who do you know in the area that might be able to give me some nugget of information?” She sent me to Grace Burkhart.

Grace has always held a very special place in my heart from the very beginning. She was one of those touchstones in the midst of the trauma, tragedy, and crisis of dealing with a child in addiction. When I, as a parent, didn’t know what to do next, Grace was a calming voice in the midst of the storm. She let me know there’s a mental health professional within the jail system that I can call and check on my son. As simple as that sounds, that was hugely relieving to me. It is with great joy and heartfelt thanks that I welcome Grace Burkhart onto the show with me.

I’m Grace. Nice to meet you guys. Happy to be here.

As we talked a little bit before we got on, where I like to start is how in the world did you get on this path of social work and all the different places that you’ve been? Your experience is quite extensive throughout the whole spectrum of substance abuse disorder, the criminal justice system, public policy, and social work, which gives you a window in and a perspective on areas that a lot of people don’t have. This is the conversation I want to open up to our readers and hopefully spread beyond here because there’s a navigation that people can access that they don’t even begin to know. What was your origin of the story in this world?

I was a hairstylist for twelve years. I got married super young and had kids super young. I got divorced when I was 25. I was a single mom with two babies. I had no idea how I was going to do anything. I was super poor and young. I met my now husband, and we got married. He got clean and sober.


The beginning of our marriage was okay and then it got rough because of his addiction. He was sick. I got pregnant with my third child, Miles. It seemed my husband’s addiction got worse when I got pregnant or the stress of it was causing him to actively use more and drink more. I believe it was two weeks before I had my third child when I was like, “I’m going to be a single mom again for the second time.” I was like, “I got to figure this out.” I knew right then I had to go back to school. I had to go back to school because I had to get a job so that I could be my own baby daddy.

That’s when I decided to go back to school. I wasn’t sure about anything. I was not sure if I was going to be homeless with three kids. I wasn’t sure if I was going to be married or not married. I wasn’t sure if my husband was going to get clean and sober. I started that journey. I had the baby. I waited until a year but I had started applying for a student. I had no idea what I was going to do. I fell into the social work pot during that time. My husband did end up getting clean and sober. He went to treatment. He’s been sober for several years now. It’s been a wild ride, but things are wonderful. I’m so happy we made it. I have no idea how we made it but we did.

That might be another conversation.

That’s a whole other episode. When I got into Evergreen, I made it into a program called Gateways for Incarcerated Youth. It was literally the universe was like, “This is what you’re doing, here you go.” I was like, “We’ll try that out.” I went to work with kids who were incarcerated at Greenhill School. I remember feeling this was work I wanted to be involved in. We’re going to college together earning college credits and working as a team to get our degrees, and it was awesome. Shortly, I found out how frustrating the system was, how the criminal justice system and these kids were here, and why they were here was mind-blowing. I was like, “This is so awful.”

I want to make a change in this system. That’s in a nutshell how I got started in the social work field. From there, I worked for Community Court in Olympia as the Case Manager. I was doing an internship. I was learning all these wonderful things about social work. I was working with all kinds of people who are involved in the justice system who had challenges and barriers that were unbelievable. It was rewarding work.

It was like, “This is exactly where I’m supposed to be.” That was how I got started. I did an internship in the Washington State Senate, and I got to work on Tacoma District 27 Jeannie Darneille’s team. That was incredible. She does a lot of work with or she did. She’s now not in the Senate, she’s retired from there. She was doing juvenile justice work. That was important. I got to see the policy side of the work. I then ended up working for Lakewood Public Defense. That’s where I met you.

I don’t think your son was in Lakewood. I actually think he was in Pierce County jail. I was also doing other cases. A lot of my clients were going to Pierce County or Nisqually jail. I fumbled into that, the Lakewood Public Defense gig because they were like, “We got this grant. We’re all lawyers. We don’t know what your job is. Let us know what you want. Here’s an office. We’re here for it. Whatever you got, we’ll take it,” and I’m like, “Cool.” I scouted out and carved out through to Tacoma and Pierce County what all the resources were. Luckily, Pierce County does have a ton of resources when it comes to social work. That was such a great time to be in Pierce County. It was, still to this day, one of my all-time favorite jobs.

What was the period that you had that job, Grace?

Years-wise, I was in the Senate in 2018, so it must have been 2018 to 2019. I would have lived there forever but it was on a grant. I had no healthcare, I had no benefits of any kind, and I had to support a family. I would’ve stayed there forever, but I had to get benefits and I got offered a state job. I was like, “I got to take this because you can’t beat that, unfortunately.”

I want the audience to read this because she was very shortly in this time frame, and that’s one I made the phone call. It was late August 2018. I love how things line up. You were there when I needed you the most. You had enough experience to be able to help calm my nerves and storm and give me some guidance. We’re a little bit of kindred spirits here because you were able to take a job and create what was most needed and pieced together the massive amount of resources that were available but were not connected.

A lot of social services are super siloed. This is my personal opinion. Everybody’s competing for funding because a lot of it is through grants. A lot of it’s through state or federal funding. Everybody’s competing for that. Nobody seems to coordinate well together, and that’s how it is. You have these little specific jobs that are so important and are the connectors. It’s the people who can connect all the different pieces. It’s vital to people surviving the system and making it out alive, okay, and intact.

VIC 32 | Drug Addiction
Drug Addiction: A lot of Social Services are super siloed. Everybody’s competing for funding. Nobody seems to coordinate well together.

That’s why I started this show a number of years ago because I had to put together the stuff that I needed in order to navigate and still maintain my sanity in the midst of it. I was like, “Why is that happening? At this juncture of where we are societally, I have to cobble this together. You’ve got to be kidding me.” It is wild. From that connector point, which I love that time frame was divinely, here’s what I want to say. Your information gave me the next stepping stone in navigating the system.

I would say that the vast majority of people or parents who are dealing with kids who are getting arrested and so on and so forth have no idea how to navigate the system. They have no idea that there’s a mental health professional. They have no idea there potentially is a drug court or all the other things that might be available. Another thing that we touched on before we got on here was this notion that I’m very clear that my son’s arrest probably saved his life because he was in drug psychosis and out of his mind. What I watch over and over again are parents or friends bailing their loved ones out because they’re afraid of the system and because it’s unknown.

It is, unfortunately, where we are now. Sometimes being arrested is the intervention that saves somebody’s life. When you’re in addiction or you’re in a mental health crisis, you likely have been on this journey for a while, and you’ve likely burned some bridges with your friends and your families that love you the most. They would do anything to help you but you push them as far away as you can. You don’t have many people that have your best intentions anymore. You being arrested sucks but it’s true. Sometimes that is what’s going to save your life. Each court and jurisdiction is different and what they have to offer. I know you’re in Oregon but this was in Washington.

Unfortunately, where we are today, sometimes being arrested is the intervention that saves somebody's life. Share on X

In Washington State, we’re ahead of the game. Oregon probably is too because they did some decrim laws in the past about substance. Washington State has a lot of options in courts. In the urban areas, I’ll say. Rural areas are tougher. Frankly, it is because they don’t have the funding or the resources and that community if it’s rural. Certainly in the more urban areas, courts tend to have options like therapeutic courts, mental health courts, drug courts, community courts, and pretrial diversion, which is a big deal now. There are always options. The tough part is finding the person who knows all the options. That was luckily what I was doing at that time. They happen to have me around.

Given your own personal experience and your professional experience, what are a couple of things that you would recommend to parents or loved ones who have somebody who’s now in the system?

That’s a good question, and there are a couple of different answers or pieces to the answer, so it would depend. There are different levels to the system. Being arrested, pretrial, that’s before you go to trial, or before you get arraigned. That’s a pretty important spot. We could talk about that. When you’re getting arrested or if someone’s getting arrested that you love, hopefully, you find out because they call you, but a lot of times you don’t. You find out through someone else or maybe the jail calls you because they identify your loved one and you’re the next person to them.

Certainly, always find out if there’s a mental health staff at the jail that they’re at if that’s one of the things that you’re concerned about. Oftentimes, Public Defense offices will have a social worker, so always check and see if they have one of those. It’s always good to get a lawyer, no matter what, but not everybody can afford a lawyer because. A lot of times, that’s not an option. The justice system is a dark place. It’s like buying a house. You get as much as you can afford a lot of times. It sucks but that’s real.

Through Public Defense, I would find out, “Do they have a mental health, person at the jail, who can either continue or get your person back on their meds if they have a prescription?” A lot of times, when people get arrested, they may be taking meds at one point and stop taking them. You can get them back on their meds in jail, which is nice because then they can stabilize, and they can think clearly. Maybe they make some different choices or decide how they want their plan to look and participate in that.

Find out what kinds of therapeutic core options they have or what kinds of diversions they have to offer through the court. Is this the person’s first time being arrested? That’s going to make a huge difference too. Do they have an extensive criminal record? Do they have a little bit of a criminal record? Those things will all be considered if they’re looking at different options for therapeutic court options. Honestly, one of the things is to be nice to yourself. Try to think rationally when you’re dealing with something like this, you’re having this crisis with a person that you’re emotionally attached to is almost impossible.

Be nice to yourself, take time, slow down, grab some people that you trust, and be like, “I’m out of my mind now. I cannot make good decisions for myself,” and grab the people that you trust to help guide you on that path. You don’t want to be like, “I need you to get them out of jail. We need to get this done.” You’re going to want to react because, emotionally, we’re wrecked. We can’t leave. We don’t want our person in jail. Surround yourself with people that you trust, and you have to trust your people. You have to be like, “This is what I want to do, but I need you to tell me if this makes sense because I can’t see clearly right now. I love this person and I want to save them.” We all know in substance use disorder and a mental health crisis, saving someone doesn’t look how we feel inside.

You’re hitting a hot topic. One is I had to get clear about who I could trust to give me the best advice that was non-judgmental. This was where we went down the rabbit hole of a lot of judgment, shame, and silence. I got clear very quickly who I could call and who I couldn’t call because I had an aspiration fairly early on that I wasn’t going to stay in crisis with this. I was going to move my way through struggling and surviving. I didn’t want to just survive this. I wanted to thrive in the midst of this. That was a higher aspiration than what I found at going to an Al-Anon meeting or some other support group like that. They weren’t speaking my language.

Everybody’s different, but oftentimes, that’s not when you jump into that. You’re a high-powered woman who’s like, “Let’s get this done, wrap it up, and put it to bed because I got to wake up tomorrow. I got to go hiking. I got a podcast.” It doesn’t work like that. We don’t get choices when you get into that situation. It’s unfair, uncomfortable, and terrible. I hate it.

What I learned from this is that my son’s journey was not my journey. It wasn’t my journey to orchestrate. It wasn’t my journey to fix or change or whatever. My role in his journey was to love him. Bailing him out would have been a failed strategy. Getting him a different attorney other than a public defender would have been a failed strategy in my son’s case because we tend to think that jail might be the bottom.

No, not at all.

We’re in a different mindset than somebody who’s using drugs. We need to learn what the mindset is, what the game of this is, and what our role and responsibility are in this. It is not to fix it because that never works.

Fixing is such a complex word. You can say, “I’m going to help you fix this,” but that’s going to look different than what we think fixing looks. As you said, you’re going to be kind, you’re going to love that person, and you’re going to support them. Support is going to look different than what we want to think it looks like.

It is not going to look like money. It’s not going to look like you get a place to live. You have to have the courage to shut all those things down. This was my journey as I learned to consistently deliver the message that no matter what you do, you will always be loved. That was it.

No matter what you do, you will always be loved. Share on X

Yes, that’s it. It’s those little simple things like when you’re talking about how I made a big impact on your journey in this process. I know I was connected, but I was kind and responsive to you. I was doing my job. Those things do matter so huge in this process. You mentioned shame earlier. That is the biggest part of this whole thing when you’re in this situation. You’re like, “What did I do wrong?” You internalize it and bring it to the surface, and anything that you’ve ever felt shameful about is now on the surface.

It has nothing to do with this situation, but it’s there. Be kind to someone and kind to yourself. If you’re the parent, the spouse, the friend, the partner, or whatever, remember that. This is bringing up a whole bunch of crap that has nothing to do with this. It’s all over you. You can’t escape it, and you’re stuck in it. Remember that you’ve got to go slow and kind. It’s all good. Take it one minute at a time. There’s no race. It’s not a race because it is not a race to win. There’s no finish line that you’re looking for.

VIC 32 | Drug Addiction
Drug Addiction: Just take it one minute at a time. There is no race.

A couple of things that you said there are changing the pace and taking care of myself. I also give that the context of there’s nothing a crisis with a child that brings you to your knees cracks you wide open and gives you the opportunity to do the personal development work, the emotional work, the spiritual work, the mental work, all of it. He has been my greatest teacher and my greatest gift because of that experience and the continued experience with him too. I keep upping how I take care of myself and who I am in the world. My mental mindset is that every time he ratchets it up, I take it up another notch in terms of how I handle and deal with myself and allow for the opportunity embedded. I wouldn’t change anything about this at all. It has been quite extraordinary on so many levels. I would not be the person I am now if it hadn’t been for him.

Sometimes we can get trapped in the shame or the blame game or any of that. It is super easy. There are always moments where we have the tunnel of all the bad things that we get sucked into. I’m glad you know that because that is the truest thing. You’re doing it and you’re doing a great job.

Thank you. I challenge people to explore the gifts and lessons embedded in this experience for themselves. There are so many people that I’ve talked to in the journey but also on the show that it has been an awakening for them as parents. It has given them the opportunity to do crapstorm work that got stuffed and arrested. If they have the courage to take hold of it and do the work, their lives will be completely transformed too.

Every time you have the opportunity to be rebirthed in a new person, you got to take that opportunity and go in it, and you’ll make it through. That’s what I do know. You’ll make it through no matter what. It’s very beautiful.

I want to go back to what you said earlier. If you don’t have the circle community that supports you in this journey in the way that we’re talking about here, you need to find one person.

To add to that, I have done lots of work in therapy and all things in my own life. One of the most helpful things that someone ever gave me was they were like, “Get a piece of paper and make a map.” When our loved ones are in crisis, our kids specifically, we are there deeper than anybody. We’re completely blind, and we cannot see. We’re drowning as much as they are. We take that map when we’re not in crisis and we map it out, and we say, “How do I take care of myself spiritually, emotionally, physically? Who are my people?”

If you don’t have people, that’s okay, but how do you take care of yourself? What are the ways in which you when you’re not doing well in this area, what do you do? Do you go for a hike? Do you swim? Do you meditate? Do you go to church? You literally write it down so that when the crapstorm shows up, you don’t have to think because we forget that our brains don’t work in the crapstorm. Pull the map out. It’s already there. You don’t have to think, and you go, “I’ve got to call Barbara and then I have to go to church on Sunday.”

You do all the things. You may do them with tears in your eyes and shame in your heart, but you’re going to do them and then you’re going to be okay. You continue to do those things and walk alongside your person in your sadness. It’s all good. You all are going to make it. The coolest part too is nothing stays the same. Everything is temporary. You keep saying to yourself in that crisis like, “This is all going to move forward in some way.”

In the five years that we’ve been in it, every time something happens, my muscle gets stronger. My muscles are pretty strong at this point. I have a self-care program that I’m running all the time. There are things in my life now that are non-negotiable in terms of my self-care. When the next thing shows up because it will, whether it’s Sam or whether it’s in my life, it’s something that’s going to show up. I am as solid as I possibly can be to navigate that in ways that I was not certainly years ago.

Life ebbs and flows. That’s what we do know. Sometimes it’s good. Honestly, you can be the strongest you’ve ever been and still get fucking racked. It’s okay because what do we know? We know that we can pick it up again and we know, “I’ve been racked again. Life is here to show me otherwise. I know that we will get through it and I’m going to climb out of this. It’s all good and I’m here for it.”

I think about it like as you dip down, you rise up, but it’s a trajectory up. I can see the micro-successes that lead to the macro-successes of building a stronger resiliency muscle and all the things. I want to ask you a question. I’m assuming that your personal experience with your husband has influenced your work in ways that some people would not have a window into the realities of what loving someone who is dealing with substance abuse disorder looks like, sounds like, and feels like. Could you speak to that a little bit in terms of having that experience and that window in?

When you live with somebody and you love someone who is in recovery and you’ve lived through their journey or a piece of their journey, honestly, you learn so much about how you love people, why you love people, why you’re effed up, why they’re effed up, and all the things. Also, why it’s all good and all part of it. If you both decide, “We want to keep going and we both are going to do this work,” then you have to go through the fire. They experience the fire together. You get burned, and it’s okay, and you recover. You get up.

My husband and I’s relationship is certainly one of them. I have two kids who are in high need of mental health. I have three kids. Being their mom, too, is an awesome journey and ride. I learned all the time mostly about myself, to be honest. What we know is we don’t change other people. That’s number one. When you hit that station, you start going internal and you’re like, “I got some work to do. I got to figure this out because they’re still part of my life.” That is so true.

What’s one thing that you learned about yourself that was super surprising?

You can love people in the struggle. I can recover from all this stuff. When you’re with somebody in your family structure who’s in active addiction or active mental health crisis, that impacts you or makes big dents and nicks on you and scars. You learn like, “We can all exist in this and recover. We can get better and we can grow.” It’s awesome. Recovery, that word is not something that I take lightly and use a lot. Whenever I hear it, I’m like, “It’s such a deep word, and it means so much to me.” Everybody can recover.

Another thing that comes to mind that makes me think of big things that I’ve learned is that we are all only humans, and we have this capacity. Every day, we come into the world with a certain amount of capacity. Once that capacity is full, it’s full. There’s nothing you can do about it to expand it. It is what it is. When you have reached your capacity with a particular person that you love, it’s easy to feel bad about it. When you get to the crap it stage, we’ll call that the top of the capacity. No Vacancy. We are like, “Damn it. I have no more crap to give anybody, including this person I love so much. I should be able to give more,” but no, you shouldn’t because you have to keep a hole for yourself.

The next part to that big long explanation is there’s always somebody next with capacity, along the person that you love’s journey, watching them go. I’m like, “I’m out of here. We’re getting divorced because I have no more. I got nothing left.” There will always be someone else to help that person in their next phase and has nothing to do with you. You got to let it go. That’s hard. It’s hard work. It’s hard for egos to be like, “It’s not going to be me that makes the impact,” and that’s okay.

You are speaking to the choir here because my wife, a few months ago, said, “I’m done.” I was like, “I hear you.” There’s a cone of silence around Sam at this point. I’m navigating and she’s taking a break. I get it. That was an interesting mindset shift for me. This thing about you hit capacity and you don’t have any more to give, I don’t know that I ever hit that. I don’t know if I would ever hit that because my story would be, now, I’ve continued to do so much work spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and physically to continue to up my capacity and to love, no matter what.

Do you mean with your son or with your wife?

It’s both.

That’s pretty cool.

It’s a new place to reside. Her statement of, “I’m done. I can’t do this anymore,” brought me to another edge. I was like, ”I’m at this edge. What’s my story about this? Who do I choose to be in the next piece of this?” It’s been interesting to navigate being married to someone who’s opted out now while I still have a son who is in recovery. As far as we know, it is three months in recovery from Fentanyl.

Nice job, buddy. Three months off Fentanyl is a big deal.

It’s a huge deal, and I’m super proud of myself. You’re in it, and you’re watching it at the same time. It’s an interesting dynamic. For the most part, I’m navigating at a pretty high level. I love them both. I can free her to do whatever she needs to do around this and free him to do whatever he needs to do around this. That’s part of the journey that we’re talking about. It’s a continual unfolding of layers that we get to work with.

When we talk about capacity, we see people come through the justice system. I remember specifically working in my role as a Case Manager in Community Court. I remember vividly folks coming in who had no more family to help support them in the way that they needed at that moment. They had no more friends that were able to help them at that moment. I was such a lucky person because I, right then, at that moment, had the capacity for that. I could not find them a place. I couldn’t house them in my house, give them my car, or give them money.

I had a little bit of time to talk to them and ask them questions sincerely about, “What do you need? What do you want to have from this experience?” Sometimes if someone’s been on the journey for a long time, they may not have heard that for a long time from anybody. It is by having the capacity for whoever is right in front of you now. Being kind or asking them something about themselves and what they need goes so far. It’s so much bigger than the way that we think about it.

We don’t always have capacity. It’s not every day. It’s if I have the capacity right this second, ask that dude what he needs. One of the things is whenever we go out or something to dinner or something, my husband does not smoke. I don’t smoke cigarettes either anymore, but he always has a lighter in his pocket, no matter what. Whenever we’re walking, if someone says, “Do you have a light?” he gives them the lighter, and it’s his thing. I don’t think he thinks it’s cool. It’s cool, but that is a small example of like, “Yes, dude. Keep the lighter. You can have it.” I don’t know. Maybe that’s a weird example, but it’s those little tiny things where you can make a difference where you never know.

You don’t ever know. I’m a business coach and consultant. I have dozens of clients that I work with, and everybody has crap going on.

Everybody has a battle that you don’t know anything about.

Everybody has a battle that you don't know anything about. Just be kind and compassionate. Share on X

Being kind and bringing compassion to the table is the mantra of the times that we’re in.

We live in a weird, effed-up, complex world where everything is going a million miles an hour, and we’re all expected to go on a million miles an hour. If you don’t, then you’re in trouble. It is slowing down and remembering that people are parents, grandparents, brothers, and sisters. We have complex systems, and we all are complex people. It’s important.

One last question. I love your energy and your optimism. Has that been an acquired thing for you or is that innately who you’ve been?

I have heard that I was born this way. Honestly, my mom is one of my biggest fans, and so is my dad. They tell lots of stories about this is just the way I was born. I would say that it’s innately who I am. I don’t bring anything but myself. You can take it or leave it.

What’s one thing that’s non-negotiable for you to keep your flame alive?

Coffee, probably, and drinking coffee outside, preferably. It’s hard to find non-negotiables because I feel I have three people who run my life, my children. Everything is negotiable. Not because I wanted to be, but because it is. As I’m getting older, what I’m understanding is what’s becoming more non-negotiable is pacing myself. I am refusing to go as fast as some people want me to go because I’m not doing it. Do you want me to go a million miles an hour? I’m probably not your girl.

I will not go super fast because I’m not going to miss it in my kids’ lives. I’m not going to not be there for them when they need me. Probably my kids are non-negotiable, and also my marriage. You have to work hard when you’re raising kids to stay connected. A couple of priorities are my marriage and my kids. Time with them is super important, at least asking them questions every day. I pick up my son every day from school. He was in second grade, and he’s going to be in third grade.

I always asked him, “Who would you play with in recess?” He never remembers their names. If he does, then I’ll ask him later. I’m like, “How’s Pierce? How was Brian?” It is because then I can get his brain working. I’ll always say, “What did you have for lunch?” Honestly, those are my non-negotiables, these small things where I need to ask my kids at least two questions about themselves every day to make sure we’re like, “I see you. I love you. I like you a lot. I’m your number one fan.” Also, coffee outside every morning. I got to move my body every day. I’m still working on non-negotiables, and they’re fluid. I’m in a certain phase in life. It’s got to be non-negotiable flexibility because I have lots going on.

I love how you worked that out.

That was great. Thanks for asking them. That was a good one.

Is there one thing of wisdom that you feel compelled to share with our audience before we wrap this up?

Your audience is mostly folks who love people in active crisis. I would say put yourself as the most important person on the planet first and take care of yourself like it is the person that you love, and the rest will follow suit. Do that. Try that hat for a while. Don’t give up on it. Keep trying it. It’s hard to do. It’s the muscle thing. It’s not going to happen overnight because we struggle with putting ourselves first and making ourselves a priority because we put these people that we love as a priority. Keep trying to put yourself as number one because then the rest will fall into place. That’s what I would say. Be kind to yourself.

VIC 32 | Drug Addiction
Drug Addiction: Take care of yourself and the rest will follow suit.

I’m totally with you, sister. If I implode, who will be here when he pops out the other side? I’m going to put an exclamation point on that. Please, take care of yourselves.

That’s it. Number one.

Thank you. This has been so much fun and delightful. I have loved meeting you in person for the first time because all of our connection previously was phone and messaging.

Thanks for having me. This has been a fun thing. I’m glad you’re son is on his journey now and he’s doing good. That’s a big accomplishment. Three months is huge. Keep it up.

I’m going to wrap this up. If somebody wants to get ahold of you, can they?

Sure, it’s

Great. Awesome.

Take care.

You too. Thank you.

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